The David Debkatome Interview: The History of O.

 Local Cyclist at Home in Shepherd's Bush.

In an exclusive interview Camelia Lamb of the Shepherd's Bush Blog Interviews David Debkatome.

Camelia Lamb: Today we are very fortunate to have visiting us in Shepherd's Bush, David Debkatome a security specialist in Middle East affairs. Welcome David!

David Debkatome: Thank you, it's good to be here, actually its just like being in the Middle East, I see here in The Bush different bits of the Middle East all drawn together so I feel really at home here, you've got the small souk, Bab al Damasq, Arab food stores and an enormous shopping mall full of people from the Gulf in addition to typical Arab street cafes.

C.L.: Good, glad you feel at home. Now you're a specialist in Psychological Profiling, let me ask you first what did you think of the note written by O to Sir John?


D.D. I really think that the nice Mr Osama is trying to pull his shamagh over the eyes of Sir John and he is nowhere near Cave 245C or whatever number it was.

The situation is as follows: apart from the occasional audio tape and videotape  nothing has been heard of  O for years.  This is very odd because Arabs, like O, love to talk and gossip and if he was in the interior, village or small town in an Arab country the news would have got around because it would be a matter of general interest. This rules out most of the rural and small town Arab world including Yemen and Sudan.

Furthermore being sociable O would find survival in a remote and isolated spot difficult so this rules out deserts from the Talimakan to the Empty Quarter to Antarctica, the Sahara and N. Africa.

It is possible to be living in a small bubble with close friends and possibly bodyguards, otherwise  isolated in a city - hiding in the crowd. He is therefore likely to be in a city where he can hide in the crowds and where he does not stick out.

C.L.: So which city do you favour as a likely destination?

DD: First it is important to realise how important beards are here. O is unlikely to shave off his beard because of its strong association in his mind with his identity as a man of the Islamic nation. That will be part of his integrity and he will not sacrifice this to reduce any risk to himself.

He would only tolerate an Islamic country. Although his second in command is an Egyptian, Saudis in general do not admire Egyptians and for that reason O would find it difficult to live in Cairo which is probably the ultimate crowd n which to loose onself. Also Egyptians tend not to have beards so he would be noticeable there too.

He would find difficulties in Shia communities because he is known to be prejudiced against them. That rules out Lebanese and Iranian cities, but also the Paraguay, Brazil, Argentina border area with large immigrant Lebanese populations..

He would stick out like a Bromeliad covered tree in South East Asian Islamic states so they are out too.

A city with a weak or sympathetic intelligence service would help O. This makes Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the US and most European countries, Iraq unlikely choices. But in any case he would not have smuggled himself to any Western state because of his clear detestation of Western Culture and beliefs.

Assuming he possesses good false documents to allow himself to operate in his chosen location, we are left with  large population centres in Pakistan and Arabia.   The most likely Arabian city suitable would be Dubai because of its size, ethnic diversity and ease of access and excellent communications.  But Dubai might be too western for his taste and Doha be favoured being Wahabi too. However Doha is relatively small with an even smaller Arab population, so it would be difficult to remain unknown.

C.L.:Surely David, it would be difficult for him to hide himself  in these Arabian cities?

D.D. Well he could be most himself in Dubai or other large Arab city such as Kuwait City. Interestingly all the photographs we have of him show him in a tightly woven turban. The turban is not characteristic of his native country Saudi Arabia but it is worn in the southern part of the Peninsula of Arabia and hints at O's identification with Yemen as the fatherland of the Arab aristocracy if one can use such a word in the Arab context. There are also hints of the 'alum, the educated Islamic leader in this form of dress - particularly the tightness of the turban. He has cultivated the image that everyone has of him from videos and photographs, that of a long faced man in a tightly tied rather high turban. This gives him the opportunity to wear a Saudi head dress  at all other times, where the cloth hangs loose all around the head with only parts of the front of the face exposed - above all this form of head dress keeps the sun from the face and therefore the view of others too. He would  look very different wearing his head dress in the Saudi style.

Otherwise the Pakistani cities would be easiest because of the ambiguous attitude of the security services to militant Islamic followers and the huge and diverse populations of several cities there. Photographs suggest O is prepared to wear  versions of Pakistani and Afghani local dress. Overall though I go for an Arabian city. Remember that Serbian leaders have survived for years on their home ground evading capture and beards played quite a roll there too!

C.L.:Yes thank you David. Now to the History of O, I believe you have some particular ideas on how he became radicalised many years ago?

DD: Yes indeed. The time of his radicalisation was, as with so many, when he was 18 and 21 years old. He was then a student at King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah. In November 1979 the Mecca mosque, just 40 Km from Jeddah,  was taken over by force by a multi-ethnic group headed up by a member of a local tribe, the Oteiba whose tribal area is just East of Jeddah, the traditional heart of Wahabism - small villages with gardeners indicating their thrift by wearing short shirts showing their lower shins. It was an attempt to start a revolution throughout Saudi Arabia. It must be remembered that the royal family had used the puritanical teachings of the 18c teacher Mohammed Abdul Wahab to take over and to control the Kingdom. The problem they had was that the standards set out by Wahabism were so strict the royal family was not seen as living up to them.  The uprising ultimately failed but the government found it very difficult to deal with, especially taking control of the Mosque without destroying it.. Finally they were forced to bring in foreign troops, Jordanians and the French. It was necessary to get special dispensations from the religious authorities to kill in the sacred place and to allow non-muslim troops into the forbidden city. Eventually the revolutionaries were driven out or killed and there were many stories of prisoners being subsequently dropped into the sand deserts and left there to die. It is not certain if these stories are true but they were widely believed at the time. The whole episode would have been radicalising for an impressionable young man like O. His obsession with keeping foreigners out of the Arabian peninsula, which has been so oft repeated in his propaganda, was probably originally aroused by  the authorities in the kingdom allowing in unbelievers to take life in the mosque - the holiest place in Islam.

The second effect of this for O was that as part of the crackdown afterwards many young radicals who were not actually involved in the siege were encouraged to go and fight in Afghanistan against the Soviets. O was one of these young radicals. This strategy probably saved the royal family at that time but exported the radicals and their particular form of Wahabism into Afghanistan and then beyond after the Soviets vacated.

C.L.: So the rest is history?

DD: Well yes and no. It is generally forgotten today that the religious movement started as an attempt at reformation within Islam, one group trying to recruit others to its more puritanical form.  Almost by accident O and his Egyptian second in command realised they could be most successful at this if they attacked totemic symbols in Western countries - sort of recruitment advertisements. So the attacks the West has suffered are very much a side show, although one which O clearly relishes.

And the future?

DD: Like the  religious conflicts in Europe at the end of the mediaeval period we can expected a long and protracted period of reformation within Islam with accompanying conflicts of various sorts, theological, ideological, and physical and this could continue for up to sixty years. For example one of the mythologies going around at the time of the Siege of Mecca was that a monster would come out of Mecca with the head of a man and the body of a beast and in one hand it would have a signet ring and in the other a rod. The beast would sort the Muslims, beating down the bad and stamping with a positive mark the good Muslims using the signet ring. the West did not figure in this vision.  Western countries need to realise the dynamic here and avoid costly strategic mistakes which focus aggressive energy onto themselves and turn themselves into targets.

C.L.:Well thank you David, that was most informative. We hope you enjoy the remainder of your stay here in Shepherd's Bush.

DD: Thank you, it was a pleasure to talk to you, and I'm now going out to explore more of the market!